Transcript: Dr. Laura & Sean

Dr. Laura [00:00:01] Hi, Sean. I'm so excited for us to talk today. Why don't you introduce yourself? 

Sean [00:00:06] Hi, I'm Sean. I am 15 years old and I am a student at my high school. I would say that I am a pretty normal person. I think the only unique thing about me is that I am also a transgender girl. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Dr. Laura [00:00:21] Sure. I'm Laura. I am a lot of things, but among them a doctor for trans kids. And at some point, a doctor with Sean. So we're here today just because Sean's activism and ideas have really inspired me as a person. And so we wanted to have a conversation about what these dynamics between trans kids and the adults who want to be supportive of them can look like and some storytelling to talk about what inspired this whole conversation. So why don't we start with Sean? When was the first time you remember going to the doctor and feeling harassed? 

Sean [00:01:00] Yeah, I remember the first time. I was eight years old and I had like a terrible case of strep throat. And I went into the doctors and the woman there who was supposed to be, you know, checking me out and make sure that I could get the antibiotics I needed and the treatment and care I needed saw on my chart that I was transgender and she refused to give me the care for my strep throat. And to answer your questions about me being trans. She specifically asked about surgery. And I remember telling her, I'm eight years old. I can't have surgery. That's not something that is even available for me until the next ten, twelve years. And she was extremely confused and she would not stop asking me questions about my genitalia. And it was a super uncomfortable scenario. She also just continued to ask me why I was happy and she said, If you're trans, you can't be happy. Why are you happy? And I remember telling her, I'm not happy. I have strep throat - like the I want to be treated for my strep throat. I remember me and my mom, we just walked out of the doctor's office and I didn't get treated because it was such a heinous example, you know, and there's a few times I remember before - I feel like it's not just the doctors who treat you with care, it's also the other employees there. I've had a lot of issues with the front desk people. I think that was the first time I truly realized I was different in the health care system because of my gender identity. I remember I had people at the front desk call me "it", "he", "the thing", and I remember just being sick and just needing care. And I remember really feeling alone. People thought that we were committing insurance fraud. I mean, it was such a whole thing because, you know, and the health care system, it's not just the doctor that treats you, it's the entire system and the way you're treated throughout it. And I remember just feeling very alone. And it was just kind of me and my family against this huge system. And I mean, it's a lot when you're such a young kid. And I just remember feeling so different and I didn't feel safe even till this day at the doctor's office. I always am anxious about how I'm going to be treated, not only by my doctors, but the people at the front desk.

Dr. Laura [00:03:30] Yeah, of course. How did you deal with that emotionally? Just like being a kid with a cold and having to deal with all this other stuff. Totally gross. 

Sean [00:03:40] I mean, me and, you know, my parents, specifically me and my mom, we built up a system before we went to the doctors, you know, on the car drive, my mom would play my favorite song. So I would, like, calm down. And, you know, no matter what we were in for, I was at the farthest I could away from the front desk far away as I could so they couldn't see me because if they saw me and they saw that my chart said male, even though obviously I identify as female, and I look very female, people got very confused. So I had to sit as far away as I could. My mom would go up, you know, and she had to deal with everything. And I'm very thankful. I have so much gratitude that I have supportive parents who were willing to do that for me because the majority of people in general, but specifically gender expansive people don't have that. And so I would have to deal with it by like I was anxious every time and we had a process where I would not be seen. I felt very exiled from the normal experience. And I feel like, you know, this place is supposed to make me feel better. Not only, you know, obviously physically for, you know, sickness, but, you know, it was such a place of anxiety. I would have bad dreams about it. And it was such a terrible experience. 

Dr. Laura [00:04:57] Yeah. Do you want to talk about that? One day you tried to go get a x ray?

Sean [00:05:02] I had to get an x ray for something for my trans care. And I was walking with the doctor and she locked my mom out, like she shut the door. She locked the door and she wouldn't let my mom in. So I was locked in a room with a grown adult and she started asking me about being trans. So first I was alone in a room with a grown person who was asking me about being trans, asking about my genitalia. And then next thing she started asking about by religious beliefs. She was like, "What do you think your pastor thinks about this?" And obviously, you know, at the time I still went to a church, I was like, you know, my pastor and my church, they're supportive of me and my identity. And I remember I was, I think like 10 or 11. And I remember I had to, like, you know, defend myself. And she wouldn't take my X-ray. And I answered her questions. And she just had asked me, she's like, "What do you think God thinks about your transness?" You know, and just kept asking me about religion, which is completely inappropriate in a medical setting, especially for a kid. And I remember seeing her lock the door. I remember being so terrified of what she was going to ask me. And by this point, it was not my first rodeo. It was not my first experience. But I remember my mom was just outside and I remember when she took my x-ray and let me out - let me out of the room. I remember just I started crying. I just started bawling my eyes out because once again, I was I was isolated by this woman. And I was just I was I was alone. You know, not only did I feel alone, I was actually alone. She locked my mom out sohe could ask me questions. 

Dr. Laura [00:06:45] Genuinely scary. 

Sean [00:06:47] It is, you know, especially because I feel like nowadays, I'm 15 and I can speak up for myself. But being around 10 or 11, I don't know how to stand up for myself. And you're always raised to trust adults and adults are the ones who help you when you're in dangerous situations. So when adults are putting you in a dangerous situation, it is not only confusing, but you are constantly aware of how vulnerable you are. 

Dr. Laura [00:07:15] Yeah. Do you think this is common for trans kids, like in trans people in general? 

Sean [00:07:21] 100%. I know that, like, I am very blessed to have a lot of friends who are also trans, non-binary, or gender expansive, and every single trans person I know has a story, has a story about the health care system and the way that they've been - they've been traumatized by it. I know that personally, you know, I was traumatized by the way that I was treated and talked about. Like I mentioned, you know, I was referred to as the "it" you know, I was "it" I was not a person. I was completely stripped away of my humanity. And every single trans person who I know has a story like this. I'm also aware of how privileged I am as a white person. I know that if I was not Caucasian, that I would be in so much more danger than, you know, being a white person. I also am very privilege because I pass really well, which if you don't know what passing means is, it means that you appear to be a cisgender person. And I also know that I have some friends and when they just start the transition, they are treated horrendously. Because, you know, I hate to say people don't think they look normal. So I understand how privileged I am. And if this can happen to me as not only, you know, a white person, but as somebody who passes, then it's like, you know, I am very privilege. I know how in danger a lot of my friends and the other people in my community are. 

Dr. Laura [00:08:48] What do you think all of this sort of constant surveillance and constant being looked at and harassed, what do you think it does to trans people, just like on a global scale? 

Sean [00:08:56] I mean, I think it really takes a toll on our mental health. You know, I think as a trans person, you figure out from a very young age, you are different. I remember I was 18 months old and I told my mom I was a girl. I was that young and I knew I was different. And I remember I'd come home after playdates with my friends who are male and crying because I knew I wasn't like them. So as a trans person, you're always aware you are different and you're always aware you're in danger and you're supposed to trust your doctors. You're supposed to be able to trust the health care system. So it causes such deep rooted fear and anxiety as a trans person. And, you know, it is incredibly common and it takes a toll. And I think as a trans person, there's very few safe spaces. I worked in an organization for about a year. I was an editor. I made videos for sponsors, grants, social media writing. And I loved my job there and it was going really well for me. And then a Nazi group started threatening my life, and I had to quit the work that I loved so much because of the threats I was getting. And obviously the government is constantly trying to take away my rights and bodily autonomy as a trans person. And, you know, I really was hoping that the health care system could be a safe place for me. But it's not and it's not a safe space for trans people. So it just becomes another place that you are extremely vulnerable and you're constantly aware of that as a trans person.

Dr. Laura [00:10:32] Are there questions you wanted to ask me?

Sean [00:10:34] Why did you want to have this discussion with me and learn my perspective? 

Dr. Laura [00:10:39] So to me, I don't need you to share these really hard stories, and I'm really thankful that you share them with me because it has, you know, as we've known each other over the years, both these stories, but also your resistance to the way that people characterize you and your willingness to speak out for yourself and to speak up for people who, you know, maybe like you, but have less resources, less support and less power. To me, it's always a challenge to me as like, okay, what the heck are you going to do? And it's also to me important to be like just to remember that trans people are like human beings, that trans kids are actual children running around, you know, trying to mind their business and be normal kids. And I think all the debates that are happening right now, quote unquote, you know, just about trans people's "humanity" are disgusting. And so just hearing that day to day stuff and the ways that you've dealt with it genuinely inspires me and challenges me like, okay, what am I going to do? 

Sean [00:11:40] Thank you for sharing. And also very quickly like to piggyback off something you said, if people take anything away from this, I'm not that interesting. I am a normal 15 year old girl. I'm living my life. I have friends. I am happy. And I, you know, and I think that people really want to alienate trans people. But I'm normal. I'm just a normal girl. And I'm just trying to I'm just trying to live my life. And I think that, you know, there's so many factors right now in government and health care that really want to dehumanize me, but I'm just a normal kid, you know, and I just, I want to be able to live my life. And there's a layer of sadness that, you know, we even have to be having this conversation today because I just want to be treated normally. And that's something that, unfortunately, I've had to teach adults and adults in the health care system my entire life is that I am, I'm just a normal person. I am human, you know, and I just, I really wanted - I really appreciated you saying that. And I want to make sure I could add something on. I have another question. Since you're not transgender or a kid, what do you think anti-trans violence does to cis people? What do you think all of these proposed laws do to adults? 

Dr. Laura [00:12:55] So I think it's really important to talk about the ways that violence and bias also hurts and injures the people who are in power and who have the structural power in these situations. Because I think anti-trans violence and anti-trans sentiment basically erodes the humanity of cis people, you know, and stops the people from being able to really be human beings. Right? That like, dehumanizing other people is also an internal process of you becoming less human, you know? And I think it's really a lot of times adults avoid the real apparent impact, the real harm, you know, and I just feel like adults need to take this in. Like, that, this harassment is happening to children, actual children. I mean, obviously, you are well-spoken and deeply analytic and are a person who's always known who you are, but you're still a kid. And so it's, you know, these other kids like it's not an abstract thing. It's not a quote unquote, "debate". And I think the tendency for people to be like, well, trans people don't really know themselves or for adults to be like, well, kids don't really know themselves, you know, just creates a dynamic of harm, you know? And the other part, right, is that when people have power in a structure like adults do, you know, like doctors do, when these sort of things start happening. So when that doxxing started happening, right, it was happening to you and it was happening to lots of doctors and other people that we know in our community, too. And the immediate impulse in the health care system that I work in was to put police everywhere, like, let's put police in every clinic where there's trans people. And there isn't the analysis to say, you know, actually police are often the cause of this harm. Police are not seen as nonviolent folks to lots of people in the trans community. Police are often the tools that are used for harassment for trans folks. 

Sean [00:14:47] And so especially for trans people of color, I'd like to add they're specifically targeted and the victims of police violence. I just want to make sure I could say that. 

Dr. Laura [00:14:58] Absolutely. I'm glad that you did. And so to me, you know, when that proposal happened, I immediately was like, no, there are no police allowed in my clinic. And if there's a police officer that's posted next to me, I will not be arriving to work. And honestly, the "let's put police officers and all of the clinics thing" died down pretty quickly. And so that's the other reason why I wanted to have this conversation with you is that hearing your stories help me to be able to say, "No, this is wrong, this is not protective of the community", and to use the power that I have, which is to say I'm a freaking doctor. I'm not pretending that I'm not, I'm not pretending, "Oh, what can I do? I'm only one person." Right? That when people in authority and my systems and structures said, "Oh, we're going to do this thing, we're going to add more police, we're going to, you know, protect me, the doctor." I said, "No, you know, my job is to be a doctor for people." And so if my clinic is a place where people aren't safe, then I can't do my job at all. 

Sean [00:15:52] And I also think that police officers are also not the way to not only make clients feel comfortable, that is not the way, I do not understand that decision of the clinic, because that just makes people more uncomfortable and it makes people feel more unsafe. So if you're trying to make a feeling of safety for the doctors and or the clients, police officers are not the way to do that. They're just - they're not. 

Dr. Laura [00:16:18] Yeah. You know, adults can't help it, right, that these things happen and there is genuinely scary stuff, right? That there is actual people firing actual bullets and actual craziness, but that we need to - if we want to think about that, we need to keep each other safe, right, that we're all bound to keep each other safe, then we got to keep the people safe who are the most vulnerable to harm. And we got to think creatively in complicatedly about how to do that. 

Sean [00:16:42] What do you think people in health care and people in general should be doing about this? 

Dr. Laura [00:16:46] Everybody who's an adult, you know, cis or trans or gender expansive in any type of way, we need to think about 1. Where are you? Who are you in the system? Speak up in the moment directly. Don't just let stuff fly by. Right? That like when you know something is happening, when you know people are looking to change things that are going to harm people's communities, then you need to say it in the moment directly and not be afraid. The other thing is I would really encourage people to review their institutional policies to see which one of these policies might threaten people's ability to access care, not only directly, but indirectly. Right. Which is that, are there police in your clinic? What are the values of everyone providing care? Not only, like Sean said, the doctors, but the social workers and the front desk workers. And everybody needs to understand the notion of safety and what it means to provide safe and good care for everybody in the community. And then I would highly encourage everybody, because we have to to try and think about decreasing policing in environments that are serving gender expansive people, which is to say that the political violence, the police violence, the health care violence, it's all connected. And so all of us who have any kind of power in any kind of where and even if we don't think we do, need to speak up in the moment because there are tons of people who can. 

Sean [00:18:04] Yeah, no, I one hundred percent agree. Some things I wanted to say, piggybacking off of it, you said not for this conversation, as I think a lot of the doctors who I meet who are part of the LGB part of our wonderful community, they think they know everything and they think that they're handling it. But, you know, I think a lot of people it's really hard for me sometimes when I'm trying to motivate people, our community who aren't gender expansive to help advocate and help fight for trans people. And, you know, I also think it is important to call to action the doctors who are part of our community, who aren't gender expansive because they have so much power and we need to help each other because we're not going to get anywhere for any of us. You know? And I also think doctors and health care systems, I think they also need to be aware of our government and the laws that people are trying to pass against trans people, especially because a lot of these laws, they specifically target health care. A lot of these laws that I'm fighting right now, they're, they're targeting my right to not only my privacy as a trans person and my trans care, but also my access to even get the trans care that I need and my medical information and my, my choices for me medically are between me and my doctor. And I think it's important for the health care people to be aware of all sorts of laws going up but specifically trans care laws, and - I promise, what I'm about to say is relevant, it might take a minute to get there. But I was thinking the other day about there's a scene in this movie I watched recently- I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out where, you know, this girl has two options. This girl has a Birkenstock or a sparkly high heel, and she's like, "You can go back to your, you know, you can pretend like everything's fine and choose the high heel. Or you can choose the Birkenstock and face reality." And I think a lot of people in the health care system and in general, they want the sparkly high heel right? They want to pretend like everything is fine and everything is great, but for they're living in a Birkenstock world. And I think a lot of people just need, you know, you have to choose to be aware of these things. It's easy to pretend like trans people, you know, aren't in danger. And, you know, most of the laws are threatening me as a trans person. Also throughout a lot of health care professionals, their rights to do their job, you know, not only for therapists, doctors, all of them, and they're all being threatened by these laws. And so I think even though it's easy to want the sparkly high heel, you know, as a fun little metaphor, we're living in a Birkenstock world. And I think it's important that doctors stay aware of what's going on. And they're aware of how endangered not only trans people are, but also their jobs are. 

Dr. Laura [00:20:52] Well, and I think it's really important for us to not be completely obsessed with ourselves and how it's going to hurt us or, you know, like challenge us as doctors or other health care clinicians, right. Which is that as we're experiencing these things, we also need to have in mind  - front of mind - all the time, which is, yeah, there's a lot of people who are going to get run over in moments where we're fine. And so we got to speak up. And I got to say, you as a human being challenge me to speak up because I'm like, well, if Sean's doing all all this stuff as a 15 year old kid, you know, I got to get my act together, be an adult and speak up because, you know, there's way more ways that I can speak up that you won't necessarily be able to do. And I think it's on all of us. 

Sean [00:21:34] Thank you. And thank you for saying that. I think you're so right. You know, I've been, you know, doing stuff like this and advocating for myself since I was about nine years old. And I remember feeling frustrated because the adults around me weren't doing anything. You know, I had my family and I knew a lot of, you know, parents of trans kids who were fighting the battles. But I, I really felt like it was just us. And there is nobody fighting for us. So I really appreciate health care workers like you who are standing up for trans people and people like me. I'd like to end by thanking you for having this conversation with me and giving me a platform today. I'd also like to thank you and health care workers like you who are fighting the fight with me and my community. 

Dr. Laura [00:22:21] Thank you so much. You know, Sean, I am so grateful to you over many years of inspiring me, making me laugh and challenging me to help you and every other trans and gender expansive kid and person out there to live the lives that they want and all of us deserve.